Rena
  1. Forum
  2. Stories
Story

Counted the word "pledge" nine times on a recap call I was only listening to

A sponsor I've been tracking for eventual first-deal reasons let me listen to a recap call. Not participating, just muted and listening, because I'd asked enough questions that he got tired of typing.

The deal is a five building flex portfolio in a secondary market. Old loan was written years ago at a rate that doesn't exist anymore. It matures next year. New senior quote comes in materially smaller because the coverage test bites at the new rate, and the sponsor is short by an amount that made me put my pen down.

So the call is about filling that. There were two groups on. One wanted to do it as preferred equity, sitting above the common but below the senior, with a stated return and no lien. The other wanted mezzanine, structured as an actual loan with an interest rate, secured by a pledge of the membership interests in the holding company.

The word pledge came up over and over. What gets pledged, who signs it, what happens to the property manager if the pledge gets exercised, whether the senior lender will even allow a pledge to exist above them. Apparently that last one is a real fight and there's a whole separate agreement between the two lenders about who can do what and when.

The part that surprised me: the sponsor said he preferred the preferred equity because of how it looks on his balance sheet. The mezz shows up as debt and pushes his total leverage number up, and interest payments come out of net income. The other one presents more like equity. Both are expensive. He said the accounting treatment was the tiebreaker, which is not where I thought that conversation would land.

I'm working out what my first deal costs and I'm eight zeros away from this. I still learned more in ninety minutes than in the last two months of reading.

18 replies

The pledge count is a great way to measure a call. I've sat through ones where the word was "scope" forty times and it meant nobody knew what they were building.

The balance sheet point is the one I'd push on. Presentation as the tiebreaker is fine when the two options price similarly, and they usually don't. Mezz debt at a stated coupon and pref equity at a stated return can look like the same number and behave completely differently on a bad quarter, because one of them has a payment date and a default remedy attached and the other one usually accrues.

@tally did anyone on that call put the two side by side at the same total cost, or were the quotes far enough apart that it wasn't a real comparison?

The separate agreement you mentioned between the two lenders is the piece I've been trying to understand for months. That's where the senior says what the mezz holder is allowed to do if the borrower blows up, how much notice, whether they get to cure the senior loan themselves. From the outside it looks like a formality and I gather it's anything but.

Reading this as a guy who wires buildings. So if the mezz group ends up taking the ownership interest, do they show up as my new customer or does the property manager just keep going? Genuinely asking.

@solder in principle the company that owns the building doesn't change, only who owns the company. So contracts at the property level tend to keep running. In practice new owners replace people. But your contract is with the entity, not the guy.

@ledger they were not the same number. The mezz quote was tighter on rate and much heavier on covenants and reporting. The pref was looser on documents and wanted a higher stated return plus some control rights if they missed payments two periods running.

So it wasn't a clean comparison and I think the balance sheet comment was partly him rationalizing a decision he'd already made. He has other lenders looking at his overall leverage and he did not want a bigger debt number sitting there.

That last paragraph is the real story. He's optimizing for the next lender, not this deal. I've done the same thing at a much smaller scale and it works right up until it doesn't.

Every time I read one of these I'm reminded that on the renovation side the whole conversation is what got built and when. Up there nobody's argued about a building in an hour and a half.

@harrow they argue about the building, they just do it in the underwriting a month before the call. By the time two capital sources are on the phone the building is a set of assumptions in a model.

The thing I'd want to know, @tally, is what the senior quote actually broke on. You said coverage bit at the new rate. Was that a DSCR test or a debt yield test? Different tests fail differently and it changes how big the gap is.

Five buildings and a gap that made you put your pen down. I own three houses in a county with one stoplight. Reading this like a nature documentary.

@hollow same but I keep reading them anyway. The mechanics scale down more than people think, they just don't have names this fancy at my size.

Flex portfolio wasn't a term I knew, so I looked it up. It means buildings that can be part warehouse part office and shift between the two depending on the tenant.

What I don't follow yet: why can't the senior lender just lend the whole amount at a blended rate and skip the second party? Is it a rule or a choice?

@juniper mostly a choice constrained by what that lender's own capital will let them do. A senior lender lends to a point where their loan stays safe if values drop. Past that point the money is riskier and it needs to be priced like riskier money, and the senior lender's investors don't want that risk at that price. So a different pocket of capital shows up and charges for it.

I'm still mostly confused about notes generally so someone correct me if that's wrong.

@vellum that matches how it was explained to me, in fewer words than the explanation I got. Started from zero eight months ago and threads like this are where it actually lands.

The thing I'd sit with is the timeline. The old loan matures next year and he's on this call now. Is that early, late, or normal? I'd want to know how long these take to paper, because if the answer is six months then his margin for the deal falling apart is thinner than the call made it sound.

@anchor I've wondered the same and been too embarrassed to ask. Adding to it: what happens if he gets to maturity and neither of these closes? Does the senior lender just take it, or is there some in-between where everybody agrees to wait?

@compass there's usually an in-between, extensions and forbearance and so on, and it's entirely a negotiation with whoever holds the loan. No standard answer, and it depends on what the loan documents allow and who owns the paper by then.

@tally thanks for writing this up. The part I'll keep is that two sophisticated groups looked at the same hole and proposed structurally different ways to fill it, and the sponsor picked on something neither of them was pitching.