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Nobody at the brewery meetup stopped to explain what a T-12 was

I've been reading here for months and finally went to an actual in person thing, a local investor meetup at the back of a brewery. I expected houses. Everything I've read about wholesaling is houses.

The first guy who presented had a 22 unit apartment building he was trying to assign. He put a slide up with a number called T-12 and another called in place rents versus market rents, and then a table of what he said the building would do at three different cap rates. Half the room nodded. I wrote T-12 in my notes with a question mark next to it and just kept writing things down.

At the break I asked a woman standing near the taps what T-12 stood for. She said trailing twelve, meaning the last twelve months of actual income and expenses, as opposed to whatever the seller says it could do. Then she asked what I owned and I said nothing yet, I'm still deciding whether I even want to be a landlord, and I braced for the brush off.

She talked to me for twenty minutes. Told me the reason the room cared about that slide is that nobody in commercial buys off what the house down the street sold for, they buy off income, and the whole argument in every deal is which income number is real. Then she said the presenter's expenses looked too low and she'd bet he'd left out real management and any reserve for the roof.

I don't know if she was right. But I understood the shape of the disagreement, which is more than I had when I walked in.

I'm slow at this. I'll probably go back next month and ask another dumb one.

13 replies

She was almost certainly right about the expenses. The two lines that get shaved on a seller's pro forma are management and capital reserves, and on a 22 unit that's not a rounding error.

If a self managing owner puts zero management in the expenses, a buyer who's going to hire a manager has to add it back, usually something in the range of 4 to 8 percent of collected rent depending on the market and the manager. Same with reserves. A building with an original roof and original service entrances has a real number per unit per year even if it hasn't been spent yet.

Do that on a 22 unit and you can move NOI by twenty or thirty thousand. Divide that by a cap rate and you've moved the value by two to four hundred thousand. That's the entire argument in the room, and it's why the presenter showed you three cap rates instead of one.

Going back and asking another dumb one is the correct move. Ask him where his reserve line is next time.

anchor, I've been reading about notes for four months and I still write acronyms down with question marks. There's no version of this where you skip that part.

Also I now know what T-12 means, so this thread already paid for itself.

22 units at a brewery meetup sounds enormous to me. Out where I look the whole town has maybe 22 units of anything.

But the income point holds even down at my price points. Every seller out here quotes me what a place could rent for once you clean it up, and every one of them means it sincerely.

The part I'd have gotten stuck on is why he was presenting somebody else's building at all. Was he under contract on it, or just bringing it around to see who bit?

That matters more than people think, because in a fair number of states marketing a property you don't own or control can put you on the wrong side of brokerage licensing, and where exactly that line sits is different everywhere. I'm going through licensing right now and it's the thing my instructor keeps circling back to. Anyone actually doing it should have a local attorney tell them what their state says.

The woman at the taps is the whole reason to go in person. You can read T-12 in a glossary. You can't read the fact that half the room found the expense line funny.

Ask him about the land under it too. On a 22 unit I'd want to know the zoning, whether the current density is even legal today or grandfathered, and what happens if half of it burns down. Grandfathered nonconforming use is a real thing and the rules on rebuilding after a loss vary by jurisdiction, sometimes street to street.

Nobody puts that on a slide.

halyard beat me to the licensing thing. I'd add one practical note from running a small service crew: if that presenter really is assigning, whoever buys it inherits every vendor relationship and every handshake the current owner made. I've walked into buildings where the old owner had a guy who did the lawn in exchange for a unit. Nothing in writing. New owner found out in April.

cobalt, I bought into one of those. Previous owner had a tenant doing snow removal against half rent, and the agreement lived entirely in his head. First storm after closing I got a phone call that started with "so how do you want to handle this."

anchor, the reason people nodded at the slide is that a T-12 is one of the few documents in this business that's hard to fully fake. Bank statements behind it are harder still. Ask for those.

Management fee point from the other side of the desk. Owners are consistently shocked that we won't do a 22 unit for the same percentage as their single family, and then shocked again by leasing fees on turnover.

If that pro forma had a management line at all, I'd want to know whether it included leasing. Half the time it doesn't.

Honestly the most useful part of this post for me is that you asked a stranger a basic question and she answered it for twenty minutes. I've been sitting on the edge of this industry for a year assuming everyone would rather I not be there.

plumb, most of them would rather you be there. The ones who wouldn't are usually selling something.

anchor, slow is fine. I've held the same pieces of ground for a very long time and the only decisions I regret are the fast ones.

I want to know whether you'd actually want the 22 unit though. Everyone in that room is doing this as a job. I'm trying to get income without acquiring a second job, and a 22 unit sounds like a second job with a payroll attached.

marlow, that's the fork, isn't it. A 22 unit with a real manager and real reserves can be closer to boring than people think, and it can also eat your weekends for two years if the T-12 was a fantasy.

anchor, go back. Ask where his reserve line is like sextant said, and then just watch the room's face when he answers.